Ross Rifle Forum
October 24, 2014, 07:23:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: SMF - Just Installed!
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Ross Mk II*** 1917 US Contract Accuracy  (Read 3691 times)
303 British
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


View Profile Email
« on: April 02, 2012, 09:08:51 PM »

First I would like to thank Barry for his help in bringing this Ross Mk II*** back to life.
It has a "LC modification" reamed chamber but otherwise the barrel is in surprisingly good condition. The lands and grooves are sharp and the bore is shiney.  It had a couple of tiny nicks in the muzzle crown's inner edge which have been honed out.  I know that the Canadians sold these rifles to the US in 1917 dirt cheap because they had been "rode hard and put up wet" since 1907.  This rifle seems to have received better care than most.
This weekend I was finally able to get out to the rifle range.  From a benchrest position using Hornady Custom 174 gr BTHP it grouped at less than 3 inches at 100 yds.  The conditions were ideal with no wind and clear weather.  I was pleasantly surprised by the grouping in light of the buggywhip barrel.  I do not intend to modify it from its original military configuration, so "It is what it is."
I intend to neck size reload the Prvi Partizan brass.  With quality components and meticulous reloading, what kind of accuracy can I expect from this military rifle?
What kind of accuracy do others attain with their military MkII rifles?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:42:14 AM by 303 British » Logged
admin
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 776


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 05:44:13 PM »

Two photos forward to me by .303 British:

Logged
303 British
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 08:40:56 PM »

Thanks for posting the pictures.
[Bottom] unfired .303 British ammo, [Middle] neck size reloaded ammo (fireformed in LC modified chamber) which shows the pushed out and forward shoulder, and [Top] crumpled brass case when the neck was so expanded that neck opening caught the neck sizing collet.
This ammo is new Hornady Custom ammo based upon new Serbian Prvi Partizan brass.
Obviously, this brass will not last long for repeated reloading.  Each time it is reloaded the brass will probably need to be annealed.  Otherwise the work hardening will cause the brass to become too brittle.
I am still restoring the Canada Tool and Speciality rear sight.  I have reproduced the three tiny springs which are inside the rear sight.  Luckily all three are identical.  Two for the elevation screw fulcrums and one for the windage detent.
I will get back with grouping after I have the rifle reassembled.
Logged
HPC
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 502


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 09:50:42 PM »

303 B – good job with the pictures as they show the transformation of the 303 British cartridge to something completely different with the LC modification.  Please weigh a fired standard 303 case and one of your LC cases and then fill them with water and weigh them.  I’m curious what the difference is.

The shoulder movement is extraordinary.  Based on the pictures, the LC case is substantially different from the LC dimensions given in TRRS and indicates that someone injudiciously ground your chambering reamer.  The change is so dramatic as to be nearly a wildcat; and I couldn’t tell what it is without knowing its origin.

What is the diameter of the case at the body/shoulder junction too?  Thank you.


HPC
Logged
303 British
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 10:34:20 AM »

HPC,
The case diameter at the body/shoulder junction is .4265" on the LC fireformed case.
I currently only have the Ross Mk II*** rifle in my possession.  I will get a fired standard .303 British case from a local fellow collector who has a Lee Enfield No. 4, Mk1 rifle.
Obviously I have an excellent balance beam scale to measure the mass of the empty and water filled cases for you.
If you can wait, then I will get the rest of the information you have asked for.
The neck size reloaded cartridges chamber perfectly back into this Mk II***'s chamber.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 01:16:50 PM by 303 British » Logged
303 British
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 11:02:21 PM »

I was able to get back from the range with fired cases from both the Ross Mk II*** LC modified rifle and a Lee-Enfield No.4, Mk I.
Obviously, these are different case manufacturers because the mass of the empty cases are different.  Since your main focus is the mass of the water necessary to fill each respective fireformed case then I hope it will not matter.  The Lee-Enfield fireformed case does not look much different from an unfired .303 British case.

                                    Ross Mk II***, LC modified          Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I, Standard

Filled case                               14.71 gm                                15.75 gm

Empty case                             10.67                                      12.12

Water Mass                              4.04                                        3.63

The difference in water mass is 0.41 gm.

Although you and I did not ask, a fellow collector sent me one of his fireformed cases from another LC modified Ross Mk II rifle.

                                 Member's Ross Mk II, LC modified
 
Filled case                               15.79

Empty case                             11.88

Water Mass                               3.91

The difference between the two Mk II rifles in water mass is 0.13 gm.

Visually I cannot tell much difference between the 2 Mk II fireformed cases.                  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 11:06:32 PM by 303 British » Logged
EGHanlan
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 10:25:05 AM »

For any interested, made it to the range this past weekend and got some
fantastic results with a MKII 4* (converted back to 3*) US Contract.
Projectile is a 174gr Sierra HP BT Match
Powder is IMR 4895  39.9 gr
Winchester Brass - Full length resize
CCI  Benchrest Primers

About 10 rounds to tune in and she was on. No wind and good light
about 80°
I'm no comp shooter and not much of a handloader but I certainly was
impressed with these results.
Not quite as accurate as a MKII** mil but very acceptable.




Logged
Restoreman
Newbie
*
Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 11:35:33 AM »

I also own a Ross MK II?? that has "LC" stamped on the top of the breach.  I'm new to this rifle and am not familiar with this designation.  Could someone please elaborate?  I've reviewed your posts, but unfortuneately am a bit clueless as the the distinction.  I recently purchased my rifle and spent a good deal of time cleaning the bore. To my surprise I have clean, crisp rifling also throughout the length of the original barrel.  I'm also unsure as to which variation I own.  Is there a listing available that illustrates the various changes that were made in chronological order so that I can pin-point exactly which specification I own?  What a great gun!!  I've been collecting and restoring (museum grade work) firearms for over 30 years.  This is my 1st Ross.  Believe me I appreciate all the discourse regarding "Bubba" and I'm not him.  I actually have a license to operate a screwdriver.  When I finally meet "Bubba" he will be taught to fear me - in short order.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:37:12 AM by Restoreman » Logged
EGHanlan
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 11:59:43 AM »

Restoreman, could you post a jpeg of the right buttstock, also look for US ownership behind the trigger guard.
If US, you will see a flaming bomb and serial number on the bottom wrist.
To post an image you must first upload it to photo bucket, then click on the img.file button under the image.
This will place the link on your clipboard. You simply paste the link to your posting body.
Logged
EGHanlan
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 12:19:46 PM »

Hello again Restoreman,
The best reference that documents the chronological changes and modifications, gov't mandated and factory, to  military Rosses would in my opinion be the Ross Rifle Story. Dupuis, Phillips and Chadwick
Info on commercial and sporting variants also found in this publication.
Not an easy find but well worth the $100.00 or so if you are really interested.
For now post some photographs and we will see what you have.
Logged
Restoreman
Newbie
*
Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 02:49:48 PM »

I'm unable to post photos at present, but I can tell you what I know about the rifle that I have.

(1) 27" barrel in .303 British cal. "LC" stamped on top of the breach, rifling clear, crisp and clean with all lead, copper, and fouling removed via scores of patches and a .303 caliber (specific) bronze bore brush, rod stop, bore guide, and Pro Shot Products "1 Step Bore Cleaner".

2) the barrel sports what I believe is a Sutherland rear sight, because it has very precise adjustment for windage and elevation.  The sight has an adjustment knob on top left corner of ladder supporting two scales of distance on both right and left of ladder.  The windage knob allows for adjustment from "2" left to "0" to "2" right.

(3 the bolt assembly is the non-interrupted type (solid lug) and assembled with vent hole at 12:00 when the action is completely closed.  I have completely cleaned (not reblued) every part via disassembly/reassembly according to instructions provided at the Military website.  They were very helpful.

4) the rifle sports a Harris type loading mechanism - no external box magazine.

5) the trigger is characteristic of the kind referred to as made from heavy wire rather than as from a stamped / filed / machined piece as noted in other posts in this forum.

6) the stock is a customized version of what appears to be a military stock wherein a cartouche is visible on the rear right side, but several of the symbols are no longer legible.  There appears to be a letter "H" or possiblily a Roman Numeral "II" in the format.  The stock has been shortened from "full length" to a point on the forearm ending just at the barrel band/sling swivel.  There is no sling swivel mounted to the floor plate of the magazine.  The stock appears to be made of a soft wood do to the fact that it scratches easily.

7) the front sight is missing a hood and the butt stock is missing the rear sling swivel and mounting screw.

Cool proof marks are present on the barrel nearest the breach but they mean nothing to me.

9) roll marking on the left side of the receiver identifies the rifle as a "Ross Rifle... 1905".

I've shot the rifle (5) times since and I'm still here (in one piece with face and jaw in tact) contrary to all of the whoop-la about the dangerous nature of Ross Rifles.  Quite honestly I've owned or worked on over 250 firearms in the past 40 years and of all of the military pieces I've come in contact with and fired this rifle is a dream - not a nightmare.  I've compared the factory round shoulder to the spent cartridges and there is definitely a pronounce change in angles and neck length once fired matching that of the photos posted in this thread.

I hope the above is helpful in your analysis.  Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:26:51 PM by Restoreman » Logged
303 British
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 08:21:16 PM »

Restoreman,
I am not the expert and more informed people can give a full discourse.
LC stands for large chamber.  E stands for enlarged.  Either could indicate that the barrel's chamber has been reamed out to accept the out of spec ammo that might have been supplied to the troops.  I understand that the appalling conditions of the Trench Service of The Great War also contributed to the decision to ream out these barrels.
I have been working on the aforementioned Ross Mk II*** which has a reamed out chamber.  It does not have either the LC or E stamp.  Truthfully, I believe that you have to fire a standard .303 British round and inspect the cartridge neck, shoulder, and body to tell if the barrel's chamber has been reamed.
Logged
EGHanlan
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 05:59:07 AM »

All leads me to believe you have a MKII rifle, the sutherland rear sight was fitted on the 5* rifles.
If the rear sight is a sutherland it will be marked as such at the top of the ladder.
Sounds like you have a sporterised MKII either way, have fun shooting it.
Logged
Restoreman
Newbie
*
Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 06:31:13 AM »

Thanks for the assistance.  I am now able to produce photos and expect to have something posted today.
Logged
Restoreman
Newbie
*
Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 06:47:00 AM »

Sir,

The rear sight markings are as follows: PATENTED Great Brittian Canada U.S.A.". 

Having viewed your match result why did you choose to perform full length resize of the brass or is this a misunderstanding on my part?

It's been suggested that I only need to "neck size" my resulting fireformed brass.  Do you have an opinion either way based on your experiences as I am considering using the Ross in "Old Military Class" competitive match shooting in my area? In our area, amoung local clubs "Old Military" connotates pre-WWII open sight competition. 

Does your rifle demonstrate any preference as to a specific grain-weight, bullet type, or brew?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!